Northwest Passage and The Vikings

[Possum]

First topic message reminder :

For years I argued with environs about the Vikings in the northwest passage and they denied that it ever happened. Well no matter how many times the foolish effing fools at Wikipedia rewrite history in their image and likeness they can't hide fact. Seams there is a new national park being formed on Ellesmere Island around a newly freed from ice ancient forest area that is sporting 6 foot diameter tree stumps of what is claimed to be Eastern Red Fir trees. That area is supposedly above the tree line so where did these stumps come from? UFOs maybe??

The environmentalists deny this has happened before (ice free north) but obviously its was ice free and being there are stumps up there indicating human involvement maybe the Polar Bears did survive during this ice free time; maybe the Vikings did travel through the Northwest Passage and just maybe the environmentalists are being proved to be money grabbing opportunists rather than valuable scientists.

There is also a great probability that the archeologists have finally discovered the site of an historical Viking settlement in the vicinity of the McKenzie River Delta which would give even greater credence to the claims by the Vikings that they historically traveled by boat all through that area.

[chrisale]

"if some one loses a 100 dollar bill under a burnt out street light , would you follow acums razor and look under the next street light because it lights up the search area."

LOL! I'd have a flashlight.

Here's a great article on the Tyee about "Alternative History", it's successes, and failures.

http://thetyee.ca/Books/2006/10/26/SevenCities/

[pen]

Chinese? Why not Polynesian . . . Haida Gwaii/H...wai'i . . . Heyerdahl went from Peru to the Tuamotus in the Kon Tiki. No reasons the Polynesians couldn't have continued their voyages north from Hawai'i since the current naturally takes you to the Aleutians and down the Alaskan coastline. In fact, if you're not careful paddling in Hawai'ian waters you can get caught and driven that way.

It's almost pathetic to think every human who came to the Americas came by foot.

Whatever. I like the notion that Vinland is V.Island. We grow great grapes with no effort whatsoever. And there's so many Finlanders here, heck. It's a great fit.

And no, I will not take any of this seriously.

[chrisale]

Chinese? Why not Polynesian . . . Haida Gwaii/H...wai'i . . . Heyerdahl went from Peru to the Tuamotus in the Kon Tiki. No reasons the Polynesians couldn't have continued their voyages north from Hawai'i since the current naturally takes you to the Aleutians and down the Alaskan coastline. In fact, if you're not careful paddling in Hawai'ian waters you can get caught and driven that way.

It's almost pathetic to think every human who came to the Americas came by foot.

Whatever. I like the notion that Vinland is V.Island. We grow great grapes with no effort whatsoever. And there's so many Finlanders here, heck. It's a great fit.

And no, I will not take any of this seriously.

[vinland]

[/quote]

If they're not Spanish, wouldn't it be much more likely to be Chinese in origin, rather than Viking?[/quote]
what are you talking about, who said they where viking. they are likely either Spanish or English.
but wait, they where not here before 1849, which is the date the gov has given to heritage protection. so like i said , they are not english, spanish, chinese or vikings, they are all indian.
after all acums razor tells us this is the simplest explanation.
as for chinese, there is suppose to be a Chinese burial cave, i have not checked out the cave with the Chinese yet, to confirm this,but i have been told where it is, just have not got there yet.
i should point out, even though there is evidence the cave has Chinese in it , it is still a indian burial cave, they are all indian burial caves , end of story.
just ask the archeological authorities, they will confirm this.

[Possum]

Vinland, you're correct he is an entity all unto himself, of himself and by himself. If it isn't of wiki origin it doesn't exist .

When I schooled in the states our soc professor was into Viking Lore and made claims of their being evidence of Vikings traveling through Minnesota and Manitoba. Lucy, my classmate in high school witnessed the artifacts along the shores of Hudson Bay and James Bay but for whatever reason the people in charge of those things didn't go to explore. Now it looks like there is renewed exploration about to happen in the McKenzie delta area and near Fort Albany on the west side of Hudson Bay and on Ellesmere Island.

Never said Vinland was here I just showed a website of someone who also believes the Vikings actually circumnavigated the north pole.

A book I was reading but lost claimed the Chinese did exactly the same thing. But we know they were terrible navigators and could never have done that either, right Chris?

[vinland]

[/quote]

If they're not Spanish, wouldn't it be much more likely to be Chinese in origin, rather than Viking?[/quote]
what are you talking about, who said they where viking. they are likely either Spanish or English.
but wait, they where not here before 1849, which is the date the gov has given to heritage protection. so like i said , they are not english, spanish, chinese or vikings, they are all indian.
after all acums razor tells us this is the simplest explanation.
as for chinese, there is suppose to be a Chinese burial cave, i have not checked out the cave with the Chinese yet, to confirm this,but i have been told where it is, just have not got there yet.
i should point out, even though there is evidence the cave has Chinese in it , it is still a indian burial cave, they are all indian burial caves , end of story.
just ask the archeological authorities, they will confirm this.

[chrisale]

All I've said is you need more proof than what you've provided to over turn what is accepted in science and, in this case, history books. All of the theories of Viking and Chinese circumnavigation seem to come out of the 60s and have been thoroughly refuted.

It's logical that western North America should not have been out of the reach of Chinese explorers just as Eastern North America was not out of the reach of vikings and just as South and Central America likely was not out of the reach of Polynesians.

It's all reasonable and there seems to be solid archeological evidence for all of the above.

What is not reasonable is saying the vikings got through the Northwest Passage. Not only is there nothing up there that has been found, nor anything written by the vikings themselves, but other records, lake sediments, ice cores, plant records, Inuit histories do not support the view that the Arctic was ice-free enough in summer to allow viking ships to sail through her or even that they attempted to travel over the ice.

[Possum]

Chris I was in college in the sixties and I guess Lucy was the originator of the myths of the Vikings in Hudson Bay. Do you realize what would happen to some of the native claims if we could prove the Vikings predated their arrival on North American soil. A tad far fetched but there are people who believe this is possible.

There is also a faction that claim the people we call native actually arrived in NA and drove off and killed those who were already living here. Have you ever heard of Indian Legends of "The Old Ones?" If these spoken histories are true then the ones we give all kinds of credence to are just opportunistic interlopers.

[chrisale]

Nothing wrong with Vikings in Hudson Bay it's along their known track from Greenland south down the Labrador coast. What I am disputing is them being in the Northwest Passage. There is a big difference. Hudson Bay --> Northwest Passage "You can't get there from here". It's that whole Northerly trajectory...

As for First Nations. They were here before us regardless of whether they wiped-out some other civilization before we got here. Whatever claims they have, are theirs to make.

[pen]

Nothing wrong with Vikings in Hudson Bay it's along their known track from Greenland south down the Labrador coast. What I am disputing is them being in the Northwest Passage. There is a big difference. Hudson Bay --> Northwest Passage "You can't get there from here". It's that whole Northerly trajectory...

As for First Nations. They were here before us regardless of whether they wiped-out some other civilization before we got here. Whatever claims they have, are theirs to make.

Their known track. So little survives that this is the one we know about. As for the mythical Northwest Passage, it's here it's there it's everywhere throughout the ages. And the Northerly trajectory isn't permanent either. Go far enough north and you're going south.

How is it that every generation thinks it knows more than the preceding one? It's like a game of whispers throughout human history . . . you know, where you whisper a sentence to the person next to you and they repeat what they think they heard and by the time you get around the room the sentence bears no resemblance to what it began as. But each is convinced that they alone repeated the message faithfully as they heard it. So it is with oral histories. And translations of early writings. Each generation arrogantly proclaims itself expert and all before were fools.

News for us all. We don't know. If you can imagine it, it might well have happened. Poseurs claiming to be the one and only right mind on the topic don't advance human understanding; they are the biggest stumbling blocks. Humbly, I submit that you're all right; and you're all wrong, too.

The Vikings sailed east.

[vinland]

All I've said is you need more proof than what you've provided to over turn what is accepted in science and, in this case, history books. All of the theories of Viking and Chinese circumnavigation seem to come out of the 60s and have been thoroughly refuted.

It's logical that western North America should not have been out of the reach of Chinese explorers just as Eastern North America was not out of the reach of vikings and just as South and Central America likely was not out of the reach of Polynesians.

It's all reasonable and there seems to be solid archeological evidence for all of the above.

What is not reasonable is saying the vikings got through the Northwest Passage. Not only is there nothing up there that has been found, nor anything written by the vikings themselves, but other records, lake sediments, ice cores, plant records, Inuit histories do not support the view that the Arctic was ice-free enough in summer to allow viking ships to sail through her or even that they attempted to travel over the ice.

wikipedia i quote.
like i said, if the nwp was ice free, the vikings would explore it by boat. and may not even go ashore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period

[Possum]

You realize of course if the alarmists conceded that there actually was a medieval warming period and that the passage was at one time ice free it would blow their bullshit about climate change right out of the water and their funding would dry up.

[chrisale]

You realize of course if the alarmists conceded that there actually was a medieval warming period and that the passage was at one time ice free it would blow their bullshit about climate change right out of the water and their funding would dry up.

You realize that we surpassed the level of warming from the Medieval Warm Period 30 years ago right?

We have doubled it in a fraction of the time it took for the earth to do it naturally.

Max Medieval Warm Period: ~0.2C
Current warming: ~0.4C

[Possum]

Be an optimist Chris, when the glaciers all melt you and I will have ocean front properties. The Pacheana bay tribe has the right idea. Move your village uphill.

On another note, the climate changes, get used to it.

[vinland]

the big question is why did we have the warming period?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period
and why did it again freeze up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
And now why is it warming again, could it be the stupidity of man.
I personally think the first warming was caused by the clear cutting of the European forests in the years prior to this warming, when all the trees where gone, the carbon was not being released into the atmosphere and the climate began to cool till we started the process over, only on a massive scale.
i assume after this global warming, when the second growth forests are all clear cut and we have no choice but to stop logging, then we will enter a ice age that will be similar to the last big one. food for thought.
as for the vikings ,clearly if the nwp was ice free , the vikings, called a people of motion, sailed through and came here, only to get massacred by the local inhabitants. dead men tell no tales.

[Possum]

I am intrigued by the notion that Vinland is Vancouver Island. The map thing is rather an interesting concept and all things being equal it is a very plausible concept. Being the Vikings navigated celestially and not by magnetic compass, their maps are all orientated to their home base and for this reason Vinland would be drawn upside down. So the two big inlets would be drawn on the wrong side of the Island.

[chrisale]

Be an optimist Chris, when the glaciers all melt you and I will have ocean front properties. The Pacheana bay tribe has the right idea. Move your village uphill.

On another note, the climate changes, get used to it.

I would be an optimist if our government, and people who support it, had as much foresight as the Pachena bay tribe and implemented both adaptive (moving) and mitigative (lessening CO2 emissions) strategies.

Currently we're doing neither. So no, I do not have very much optimism.

And that's only thinking of my own little place in the world here.... that's not talking about what needs to happen on a global scale in terms of getting millions of people out of the way and/or mitigating emissions.

[Possum]

I am optimistic that the rest of the world will catch on and stop spending this money very foolishly. Most of the money going towards this so called mitigation is only paying the scientists making these absurd claims. If there were other fish to fry the scientists will all switch to frying those fish and Climate Change will again be ignored.

There is a lot of concern the climate change computer modelling is purposely skewed by these self same scientists to get the results these so called scientists are postulating.

[Possum]

I got this off a web site talking about the year I was born

In 1944... Meat rationing ends in Australia. The Japanese launch an offensive in central and south China. Operation Overlord, commonly known as D-Day, commences with the landing of 155,000 Allied troops on the beaches of Normandy in France. The Allied soldiers quickly break through the Atlantic Wall and push inland, in the largest amphibious military operation in history. Turkey ends diplomatic and economic relations with Germany. Mass murderer Marcel Petiot is apprehended in Paris Métro station. Aachen, the first German city to fall in WWII, is captured by American troops. Canadian Arctic explorer Henry Larsen becomes the first person to successfully navigate the Northwest Passage in both directions in a schooner.

Please read and try to understand the last sentence. But we all know that didn't happen eh?

[chrisale]

I got this off a web site talking about the year I was born

In 1944... Meat rationing ends in Australia. The Japanese launch an offensive in central and south China. Operation Overlord, commonly known as D-Day, commences with the landing of 155,000 Allied troops on the beaches of Normandy in France. The Allied soldiers quickly break through the Atlantic Wall and push inland, in the largest amphibious military operation in history. Turkey ends diplomatic and economic relations with Germany. Mass murderer Marcel Petiot is apprehended in Paris Métro station. Aachen, the first German city to fall in WWII, is captured by American troops. Canadian Arctic explorer Henry Larsen becomes the first person to successfully navigate the Northwest Passage in both directions in a schooner.

Please read and try to understand the last sentence. But we all know that didn't happen eh?

Oy.

I've never said he didn't traverse the Northwest Passage. Just because he made it through doesn't mean it was ice free in summer like it is today. Icebreakers and submarines go through it all the time. That doesn't mean it's the same then as it is now!

He only managed because he was in a very stoutly built ship with a strong diesel engine to push through the ice and even then he barely made it.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/arcticexpedition/larsenexpeditions
The University of Calgary has a good account of his travels.

From Halifax to Vancouver, 1944
While at Halifax during the winter of 1943-44, the crew of the St. Roch received orders to make a return trip that spring. To facilitate the passage, a larger diesel engine was installed along with ex panded living spaces for the crew. The ship set off on July 22nd and made good time. After a quick stop at Frobisher Bay (Iqaluit) fog and ice forced it east towards Greenland, whose shore Cpl. Larsen followed until turning west for a resupply mission to Pond Inlet on August 12th. There the St. Roch also took on an Inuit family who traveled west to Herschel Island.

On its westward passage, Larsen took the St. Roch on a different route. Through the Parry Channel to Banks Island, the ship turned south through the Prince of Wales Strait and out into the Beaufort Sea. The return passage was far easier than the previous one had been. In September the ship was nearly destroyed by hurricane force winds while at Tuktoyaktuk, yet the ice had been lighter than the previous summer. As a result, Larsen decided to try to complete the passage without having to winter in the Arctic. Traveling west along the coast of Alaska, the St. Roch found itself in a battle against the ice as it tried to reach Bering Strait before it was locked in for the winter. By September 27th however, the St. Roch had reached the strait and passed into the Pacific. After stopping at King Island to trade with the native residents, the crew made the final leg of its journey, reaching Vancouver on October 12th 1944 . The return voyage had been conducted in a record 86 days, having covered 7,295 miles in 1,031 hours and 34 minutes of steaming.

http://www.ousland.no/2010/10/we%E2%80%99ve-crossed-our-wake-%E2%80%93-and-arrived-in-norway

Compare that story to this one from 2010 when a trimaran sailboat went all the way around the pole in one summer!

In the early hours of this morning, Thursday 14 October, the “Northern Passage” crossed its own wake
and reached the coast of Norway. They have successfully completed their mission: the first Arctic circumnavigation through the Northeast and Northwest Passages during one and the same season!

It's a Trimaran like out of the Caribbean for goodness sake! No big diesel engines or reinforced hull!

GET A GRIP MAN! It's literally clear sailing in the summer all the way through Canada and Russia! Larsen had to push and scrape and avoid ice almost the whole way and that was only to get through the Canadian portion!

[Possum]

Chris, Larsen went both ways in one summer. I think you should be going to ESL 101 for clarifications.

[chrisale]

Chris, Larsen went both ways in one summer. I think you should be going to ESL 101 for clarifications.

No he did not.
God. Did you even read the link? Now you can't even agree on freaking historic facts.

READ IT AGAIN
http://www.ucalgary.ca/arcticexpedition/larsenexpeditions

It took him 2 full seasons (1940-1942) to go East on the Amundsen Route then he returned West in one summer by the northern route in 1944.

Here's the map that shows where Larsen went... Blue is the Easterly trip, Red is coming back West.

If you don't accept that then frankly you're bloody hopeless.



And this is the route that the Trimaran took in 2010 to go full circle around the Arctic in one season.


http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/usa/Trimaran-circles-the-Arctic-in-a-single-season/75846


This is the Trimaran "Northern Passage" while stopped in Cambridge Bay in September 2010
http://vagabond.fr/album/NordOuest2010/05_Arrivee_trimaran_Northern_Passage_a_Cambridge_Bay_16_sept_2010


This is the Peter 1, which also went around the pole in 2010 (the two boats each claim to have completed it first)

This is the Diesel RCMP boat St. Roch in May 1948 breaking ice in the Beaufort Sea.

[booboo]

ewwwwww...".Larsen went both ways in one summer.."

hmmmm..did he er did'nt he....

Any port in a storm eh sailor.....

[vinland]

chrisale , i have a question for you, do you think lief Erickson sailed through the north west passage. or do you think he was afraid to try.
remember ,he was a sea captain and was used to sailing from Europe to Iceland to Newfoundland and to green land, clearly he was not afraid to sail in icy waters and was quite adventurous..

[chrisale]

i have a question for you, do you think lief Erickson sailed through the north west passage. or do you think he was afraid to try.
remember ,he was a sea captain and was used to sailing from Europe to Iceland to Newfoundland and to green land, clearly he was not afraid to sail in icy waters and was quite adventurous..

Neither. I think he was simply unable to. The vikings were exceptional navigators, but they had no way to deal with ice other than sail around it. Their ships were no stronger than the later European ships that tried and got crushed wintering over.

That's not fear. It's pragmatism.

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