Northwest Passage and The Vikings

[Possum]

For years I argued with environs about the Vikings in the northwest passage and they denied that it ever happened. Well no matter how many times the foolish effing fools at Wikipedia rewrite history in their image and likeness they can't hide fact. Seams there is a new national park being formed on Ellesmere Island around a newly freed from ice ancient forest area that is sporting 6 foot diameter tree stumps of what is claimed to be Eastern Red Fir trees. That area is supposedly above the tree line so where did these stumps come from? UFOs maybe??

The environmentalists deny this has happened before (ice free north) but obviously its was ice free and being there are stumps up there indicating human involvement maybe the Polar Bears did survive during this ice free time; maybe the Vikings did travel through the Northwest Passage and just maybe the environmentalists are being proved to be money grabbing opportunists rather than valuable scientists.

There is also a great probability that the archeologists have finally discovered the site of an historical Viking settlement in the vicinity of the McKenzie River Delta which would give even greater credence to the claims by the Vikings that they historically traveled by boat all through that area.

[TomW]

Interesting stuff but the planet is only 6000 years old so how could this be?

[chrisale]

if the vikings had been there along with trees and birds and bees they would have written about it. And the Inuit would have been there too and have recorded it as well.

They didn't.

Get over it.

Meantime.... back in the real world.
http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-03-ocean-acidification-unprecedented.html

"The world's oceans may be turning acidic faster today from human carbon emissions than they did during four major extinctions in the last 300 million years, when natural pulses of carbon sent global temperatures soaring, says a new study in Science. The study is the first of its kind to survey the geologic record for evidence of ocean acidification over this vast time period."

[Possum]

Chris, neat tactic you enviros have, keep diverting the reader elsewhere. Too bad you didn't see the TV show about this but being you are a wikiwonder you wouldn't believe hat was said anyway.

[chrisale]

Chris, neat tactic you enviros have, keep diverting the reader elsewhere. Too bad you didn't see the TV show about this but being you are a wikiwonder you wouldn't believe hat was said anyway.

TV shows say a lot of things and often not what science says and often not with any reference to scientific work. They have their place.

The nice thing about wiki is they generally cite sources, so you can actually see where the information is coming from. If that isn't there, then it's probably not a good idea to use it.

There are plenty of better places than wiki.

If you'd like to talk about what is actually happening in the Arctic I'd suggest this recent information released from NASA.

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/thick-melt.html

But of your course your response will be it's all happened before. Which isn't the point of course, the point is it has never happened this fast. Not even with the Vikings.

[Possum]

Tree stumps emerging from the ice, stumps showing human involvement but this human activity was how many years ago? It wasn't what you claim and if even the stumps uncovered were from 10,000 years ago it sure blows the doors off your bullshit claim the melting has never happened this suddenly before.

The scientists quoted claim that this ice was probably gone about 3000 years ago so this does give credence to the Viking claims that they sailed into this area not that long ago. In history 3000 years ago wasn't all that long but I guess you were in a crowded 22 person classroom so you missed that part of the lesson.

[chrisale]

Tree stumps emerging from the ice, stumps showing human involvement but this human activity was how many years ago? It wasn't what you claim and if even the stumps uncovered were from 10,000 years ago it sure blows the doors off your bullshit claim the melting has never happened this suddenly before.

The scientists quoted claim that this ice was probably gone about 3000 years ago so this does give credence to the Viking claims that they sailed into this area not that long ago. In history 3000 years ago wasn't all that long but I guess you were in a crowded 22 person classroom so you missed that part of the lesson.

Maybe if you could provide some sort of evidence other than your vague memories of TV shows we could actually have a discussion about it. You never have and I only work with science that can be verified.

Perhaps our local Library has this book available, it might help:

A History of Exploration for the Northwest Passage
New York, Bern, Frankfurt/M., Paris, 1992. 377 pp.
American University Studies: Series 9, History. Vol. 121
Print: ISBN 978-0-8204-1745-5 hardback
SFR 62.00 / €* 47.10 / €** 48.40 / € 44.00 / £ 40.00 / US$ 65.95

Book synopsis
This fascinating volume details two millenia of Arctic exploration driven by a hunger for commercial routes to the orient, colonization, exploitation of the natural resources of North America, and the pursuit of fame and glory. Included are the contributions of the Norse, Irish, Iberians, Germans, Danes, British, French and Americans. It describes the privations of the expeditions of Munk, DeLong, and Greely; the mystery of the Franklin expeditions; the 'race for the Pole'; and, the eventual completion of the Northwest Passage. It reflects the transition in the North from Viking 'longboat', through the age of sail, to the era of the submarine and airplane.

[vinland]

if they did they sail west to the pacific, they would likly have drawn a map.
like the vinland map of newfound land.

in the vinland sagas. they clearly sailed south to newfound.it does not take a brain surgeon to see this. just read the saga.

To find Vinland, one must imagine the Vikings perspective, In a time the southern Arctic Ocean was reliably open during the warm part of the year. Then the accounts in the sagas make sense.
Leif's account begins in 995, in Greenland. Lief tells his father, Erik the Red, how he was blown southward of course while in route from Iceland: He accidentally found two large Islands [today Newfoundland and Baffin island]and a part of north American mainland [probably Labrador, Which would have been well wooded in that warmer time]. He proposes to sail westward and explore what is obviously a large amount of new land. [Saga quotations are in the translation found in Farley Mowat's Far West.]

The saga continues..."They made their ship ready for sea ;when all was ready they sailed ...reaching an island which lay to the northward of the country[ the inhabited south of the west coast of Greenlnd . They went up and looked about in fine weather. After that they returned to their ship and sailed through the sound which lay between the island and that cape which projected northward from the land itself".
Heading northward [and a bit westward] from south Greenland [which is the only part of that huge island that was ever inhabited] the large island one reaches is plainly Baffin island; the translation doesn't tell me clearly if "they looked about them " refers to exploring one island or several."up there" seems to me to refer to the northward- projecting cape [ellesmere Island]. in any case, the sound they sailed through after exploring Baffin island and probably some nearby islands is known as Lancaster Sound.


"They sailed westward around the cape". contains the saga: and from the north end of Baffin Island it is basically westward all the way to the north cape -- Alaska, at point Barrow.
" There they found many hellur. there were many arctic foxes there. They gave a name to this country and called it helluland. From thence they sailed for two days and bore away from the south toward the southeast, until they reached a wooded country containing many animals. An island lay off to the southeast of this country. Then they sailed southward along this land; after two days they came to a cape" . At this point they had reached Vinland.

[chrisale]

Thank you Vinland for showing that if the Vikings had been transiting through an ice-free Arctic they would have written about it. They kept pretty meticulous logs.

if they did they sail west to the pacific, they would likly have drawn a map.
like the vinland map of newfound land.

in the vinland sagas. they clearly sailed south to newfound.it does not take a brain surgeon to see this. just read the saga.

To find Vinland, one must imagine the Vikings perspective, In a time the southern Arctic Ocean was reliably open during the warm part of the year. Then the accounts in the sagas make sense.
Leif's account begins in 995, in Greenland. Lief tells his father, Erik the Red, how he was blown southward of course while in route from Iceland: He accidentally found two large Islands [today Newfoundland and Baffin island]and a part of north American mainland [probably Labrador, Which would have been well wooded in that warmer time]. He proposes to sail westward and explore what is obviously a large amount of new land. [Saga quotations are in the translation found in Farley Mowat's Far West.]

The saga continues..."They made their ship ready for sea ;when all was ready they sailed ...reaching an island which lay to the northward of the country[ the inhabited south of the west coast of Greenlnd . They went up and looked about in fine weather. After that they returned to their ship and sailed through the sound which lay between the island and that cape which projected northward from the land itself".
Heading northward [and a bit westward] from south Greenland [which is the only part of that huge island that was ever inhabited] the large island one reaches is plainly Baffin island; the translation doesn't tell me clearly if "they looked about them " refers to exploring one island or several."up there" seems to me to refer to the northward- projecting cape [ellesmere Island]. in any case, the sound they sailed through after exploring Baffin island and probably some nearby islands is known as Lancaster Sound.


"They sailed westward around the cape". contains the saga: and from the north end of Baffin Island it is basically westward all the way to the north cape -- Alaska, at point Barrow.
" There they found many hellur. there were many arctic foxes there. They gave a name to this country and called it helluland. From thence they sailed for two days and bore away from the south toward the southeast, until they reached a wooded country containing many animals. An island lay off to the southeast of this country. Then they sailed southward along this land; after two days they came to a cape" . At this point they had reached Vinland.

[Possum]

Like a true wikiwonder you post conjecture and unfounded quasi fact. Looks like there are a group of REAL scientists actually planning recognizance trips to Ellesmere Island to start factual documentation of this site. But I should send them your typical bullshit links that prove they are just wasting their money.

[chrisale]

Like a true wikiwonder you post conjecture and unfounded quasi fact. Looks like there are a group of REAL scientists actually planning recognizance trips to Ellesmere Island to start factual documentation of this site. But I should send them your typical bullshit links that prove they are just wasting their money.

LOL.

So I provide links to NASA and SCIENCE and vinland provides interpretations of the text of the Viking Sagas (texts written by... you know.. ACTUAL vikings ) and *We* are the ones posting conjecture and unfounded quasi fact?

At least you're always good for a laugh Possum!

This image of the routes the Vikings took according to the Sagas is hosted on Wiki. *GASP*!

lol


And if you're up on your Old Norse/Icelandic, you can read the actual Saga here:

http://www.heimskringla.no/wiki/Gr%C3%A6nlendinga_saga

If you use Google Chrome it will translate into rough English for you. But I hear Google and Al Gore are in kahoots, so I'm sure it's leaving out the translation of the part when they go through the Northwest Passage to the Pacific.

[vinland]

funny how vinland was a island on the 49th parallel that had trees as big as houses , 60 lbs salmon and it never snowed during the winter. it was also a seasons voyage from greenland.
newfound land is a 2 week sail south of green land, this would mean the viking sailed 1 week south, did 3.5 months of circles then sailed another week south.
the kingdome had 500 vikings living in it. i guess the few houses at newfound where packed. lastly , erik the red had a viking ship sitting in his front yard, a ice free passage through the north west passage and a island full of sallal berries to make wine and her was a viking. to say he or his son never tried to go there is like saying we never went to the moon or the earth is still flat.

[chrisale]

The key difference is that we have video, and rocks, to prove that we've been on the moon. We have circumnavigated the Earth to prove that it is round.

We do not have a single written testimony or archaeological artifact proving Erik the Red or any other Viking made it *into or through* (which is Possums contention) the NorthWest Passage.

We know he may have gotten near the eastern portal of Lancaster Sound (the north end of "Helluland/Baffin Island") but they named everything else in their records, so why would they stop there?

Occam's Razor:
A principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.

The reason they did not talk about it, is because they did not get there. For whatever reason.


Furthermore, we have mountains of archeological evidence and oral traditions proving that the Inuit and their ancestors have been living in the Arctic regions for 10s of 1000s of years, and nowhere in those records does it show the kinds of changes we are now seeing.

[Possum]

I had a school mate when I was in high school. She traveled home to the east side of Hudson Bay for the summers but wanted to become a nurse for her village. She told us in class of finding strange artifacts on their annual summer migrations up and down the east coast of Hudson Bay; artifacts that looked for all intents and purposes like the Viking Stuff in our then school books.

But I digress, the assholes of Wiki never ever talked to Lucy, so she must have been bullshitting us right Chris.

[chrisale]

I had a school mate when I was in high school. She traveled home to the east side of Hudson Bay for the summers but wanted to become a nurse for her village. She old us in class of finding strange artifacts on their annual summer migrations up and down the east coast of Hudson Bay; artifacts that looked for all intents and purposes like the Viking Stuff in our then school books.

But I digress, the assholes of Wiki never ever talked to Lucy, so she must have been bullshitting us right Chris.

You do realize the East Coast of Hudson Bay is nowhere near (1200km south) Lancaster Sound and the Northwest Passage right?

It's like you're saying the Vikings got to Prince George because you saw artifacts in Vancouver. The climate is identical in Vancouver and Prince George too.

And I'm pretty sure the Viking sagas predate Wikipedia. So you can save your outrage.

[vinland]

The key difference is that we have video, and rocks, to prove that we've been on the moon. We have circumnavigated the Earth to prove that it is round.

We do not have a single written testimony or archaeological artifact proving Erik the Red or any other Viking made it *into or through* (which is Possums contention) the NorthWest Passage.

We know he may have gotten near the eastern portal of Lancaster Sound (the north end of "Helluland/Baffin Island") but they named everything else in their records, so why would they stop there?

Occam's Razor:
A principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.

The reason they did not talk about it, is because they did not get there. For whatever reason.


Furthermore, we have mountains of archeological evidence and oral traditions proving that the Inuit and their ancestors have been living in the Arctic regions for 10s of 1000s of years, and nowhere in those records does it show the kinds of changes we are now seeing.

Here is where we have a problem, if a artifact was found by someone who is not a qualified archeologist , it is against the law for said person to remove it and take it to a archeologist for identification, if its older then 150 years old.
i personally know of artifacts that sit in caves that are not native, but if i where to take them for identification, i would be prosecuted for raiding a Indian burial cave , even if it where not a native burial ground.
As for evidence the vikings made it to Vancouver island, if you don't look, or accept whats already been found, you will never know.
Occam's Razor: is for lazy people.
the vinland map is a good example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland_map
greenland is closer to newfoundland so therefore the island has to be newfoundland.
Print out the vinland map , flip it over HOLD IT TO THE LIGHT AS IF YOU ARE LOOKING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD, look at the island and ask your self, which island it looks like.
ill give you a hint, giant salmon, giant trees and it is located exactly where the lief saga says it is. LEAVE GREENLAND, SAIL NORTH, SAIL WEST THROUGH THE PASS, THEN SOUTH, THEN SOUTH EAST, TILL YOU HIT THE ISLAND ON THE 49TH .
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/1aintro.html

[Possum]

Too bad you are so typically an environmental asshole. There are lots of evidences of Viking travel around the northern hemisphere but because you have your nose so far up the global warming alarmists ass that you can't see the forest for the trees. You call yourself an academic yet you are nothing but a fucking lucky IT clueless prick.

Time for me to exit stage right because you cannot differentiate fact from your gloated ego.

[chrisale]

"Too bad you are so typically an environmental asshole. There are lots of evidences of Viking travel around the northern hemisphere"

Except you have never actually provided any evidence that they made it near Ellesmere. None. Zero. No your rude words are not enough.

You, my clearly under-medicated friend, need to face the fact that you could be wrong. Either that, or man up and find some evidence other than that from your own mind.

The Sagas are very clear about where the Vikings were and the only person I've ever heard to challenge the Sagas is YOU. Sorry, your singular opinion doesn't do it for me.

[chrisale]

Oh, and while you're busy researching. Please also research the Micronesians in the Pacific.

According to the US State Dept.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/1836.htm

Kiribati was settled by Micronesians in 1300BC (2000 years before Vikings were around) and the Islands have been populated ever since even though they're only a few metres above sea level at their highest.

That continuous occupation of the Islands will likely end by 2100 because of rising sea levels due to global warming. The government there is currently devising plans on where to move its' citizens. Looks like they'll end up on Fiji.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17295862

[chrisale]

i personally know of artifacts that sit in caves that are not native, but if i where to take them for identification, i would be prosecuted for raiding a Indian burial cave , even if it where not a native burial ground.

So rather than alerting archeological authorities to the discovery so that it could perhaps be protected, identified, and change history books, you just leave them there.

Good Idea.

[Possum]

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1av.html

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1bv.html

[chrisale]

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1av.html

http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1bv.html

Wait.

So you actually think Vinland.... is HERE!?

Jeez man.

Cool website. But. Ya. Not what you'd call, an "authoritative" view. When it's in NATURE or SCIENCE or some other scientific journal then I'll consider it.

http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/natcul/vinland.aspx

I would like to go to L'Anse Aux Meadows, National Historic Site in Newfoundland some day.
From the Description at Parks Canada:

Although the evidence is often difficult to interpret, the following is based on the most recent analyses of the Sagas and archaeological and palaeoecological evidence. L'Anse aux Meadows was a place where ships could be hauled ashore, looked after and made ready and safe for the long voyage home. The ships were vital to the Norsemen, their only link to the homeland. The site itself was a base and winter camp for people exploring regions farther away from Greenland. Some of their voyages must have taken them as far south as the St. Lawrence River and parts of New Brunswick.

We know this because butternuts were found among the Norse objects. Butternuts have never grown in Newfoundland; today their northern limit is in northeastern New Brunswick. New Brunswick is also the northern limit for wild grapes. This means that the Norse people who settled at L'Anse aux Meadows may also have found the wild grapes on one of their excursions and decided on the name Vinland. Although L'Anse aux Meadows is not Vinland as such - Vinland was a country, not a place - this site would have marked the entrance to Vinland, which probably extended to the St. Lawrence River and New Brunswick.

[vinland]

i personally know of artifacts that sit in caves that are not native, but if i where to take them for identification, i would be prosecuted for raiding a Indian burial cave , even if it where not a native burial ground.

So rather than alerting archeological authorities to the discovery so that it could perhaps be protected, identified, and change history books, you just leave them there.

Good Idea.

i have alerted the archeological authorities, for the last 25 years they have been telling me i have found nothing and refuse to come down.i took a bunch of rcmp to the sites then gave the them some artifacts that where not indian in origin, risking jail time. although they tried to charge me , they did not charge for theft and gave the stuff to the manulth so it can be hidden or destroyed, then the sites where the stuff came from was added to the treaty land.
this is how history is hidden, how could you expect viking evidence can surface with this type of ignorance. luckily i left some of the evidence on site, at least if the gov does send someone down to see what i found , i could, after 25 years , show them the evidence. if that where to happen , you could place it in the light.
as for protection, all the caves are protected , they are all indian burial caves, end of discussion. even the cave with the body armor, swards, helmets ect is a Indian burial cave.
your attitude is typical of the archeologists who have there head so far up there ass they can see the light.
open your eyes, the evidence is here.
possum, please don't call this person a environmentalist, its insulting.

[chrisale]

i personally know of artifacts that sit in caves that are not native, but if i where to take them for identification, i would be prosecuted for raiding a Indian burial cave , even if it where not a native burial ground.

So rather than alerting archeological authorities to the discovery so that it could perhaps be protected, identified, and change history books, you just leave them there.

Good Idea.

i have alerted the archeological authorities, for the last 25 years they have been telling me i have found nothing and refuse to come down.i took a bunch of rcmp to the sites then gave the them some artifacts that where not indian in origin, risking jail time. although they tried to charge me , they did not charge for theft and gave the stuff to the manulth so it can be hidden or destroyed, then the sites where the stuff came from was added to the treaty land.
this is how history is hidden, how could you expect viking evidence can surface with this type of ignorance. luckily i left some of the evidence on site, at least if the gov does send someone down to see what i found , i could, after 25 years , show them the evidence. if that where to happen , you could place it in the light.
as for protection, all the caves are protected , they are all indian burial caves, end of discussion. even the cave with the body armor, swards, helmets ect is a Indian burial cave.
your attitude is typical of the archeologists who have there head so far up there ass they can see the light.
open your eyes, the evidence is here.
possum, please don't call this person a environmentalist, its insulting.

If they're not Spanish, wouldn't it be much more likely to be Chinese in orgin, rather than Viking?

[vinland]

i would like to point out something, acums razor is, often the simplest explination is the right one.
chrisale, if you lose something you will only find it exactly where it is, you can look every where else, but if you don't look where it is, you will not find it.
if some one loses a 100 dollar bill under a burnt out street light , would you follow acums razor and look under the next street light because it lights up the search area.

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